Meet Elliot Roe
Elliot Roe is a leading mindset and performance coach, celebrated for elevating the mental game in poker. With a foundation in hypnotherapy, Elliot has developed ‘Primed Mind,’ an app acclaimed for helping players achieve peak performance.
His expertise is not limited to poker; he also advises high performers across various disciplines, from UFC fighters & Olympians, to CEOs, Founders, and Hedge Fund Managers.
Elliot’s holistic approach to mindset and performance has positioned him as a pivotal figure for those seeking to conquer stress, enhance focus, and master the emotional complexities inherent to high-stakes decision-making, both on and off the felt.
Listen to the episode on Spotify here or on your favorite podcast platform.
Podcast transcript:
Welcome back, The Urban Monk Dr. Pedram Shojai here. My guest is hypnotherapist to some very influential people, hypnotherapist to some bad-ass is in athletics. A guy who helps people get their head straight.
I think you’re going to enjoy it.
Here we go.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Elliot, welcome to the show. It’s good to see you.
Elliot Roe: Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. Listen, I’m a big fan of what you’re doing. Um, you have helped a lot of people and, um, mindset to me is everything I. Uh, takes me.
Dr Pedram Shojai: back to the original kind of, I’m, I’m sure I misquote the hell out of this, but, you know, Milton Erickson was asked in an interview, what’s it like putting people in trance all the time?
Dr Pedram Shojai: And he kind of scoffed and said, you know, I, I feel like you misunderstand what I do. Um, I try to take these poor people out of their trances all day, every day. Right. And he, you know, him being the, you know, the psychiatrist who founded modern Hypnotherapy.
Elliot Roe: Yeah. And, and I think it’s a, it is a beautiful description of, of what the job is. Um, so throughout, throughout our lives, um, not only are we in tra but we’re also picking up these programs and I think the, the most of hypnotherapy is actually deprogramming rather than programming people, people think, Hey, you know, this person is, um, you know, gonna
Elliot Roe: Create a program, in my mind, things are gonna be different because we’re gonna be adding, but we’re actually subtracting, we’re taking away the programs that are there, that are stopping you from being your true self and having your full potential. Um, so we pick up these negative programs throughout life, and it’s the job of the hypnotherapist in many ways to bring you back to your true self as if those traumas hadn’t happened.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, it’s funny you think of the spiritual traditions, um, many, many of which talk about us being born in, you know, much more pure state, um, you know, closer to God, closer to perfection. And then, you know, the programming starts, the, the dramas and the traumas start. And so, you know. By the time we’re pre-teens, we have lots of faulty memes or negative viruses in our mental programming that, um, help code for the, for the bad decisions and the problems that we have.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Is that, is that in line with how hypnotherapy, uh, thinks?
Elliot Roe: Yep. So, so the, the root of hypnotherapy I take is regression based hypnotherapy. So the majority of my work is going through the client’s memories, their traumas, their childhood, um, and getting an understanding of where the inefficient programs were created. Um, and you know, from an evolutionary perspective, it, it is very useful for children to pick up fears.
Elliot Roe: Very quickly. So if we think about, you know, the, the tiger in the jungle, there’s a small child there. The mom starts screaming, the child learns that tigers are scary. That’s something I should have a fight or flight response to. And that allows us to live in any environment in the world and be successful.
Elliot Roe: So, you know, in, in the Arctic, you know, it is when a polar bear comes and in the jungle it’s when a tiger comes. And the, the common theme is the parent demonstrating fear.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yep.
Elliot Roe: And that’s, that’s how the fears picked up. Now we pick up all sorts of fears this way and all sorts of programs, um, but this was much more efficient as an evolutionary survival tool than setting you up for success in the modern world.
Elliot Roe: So what we are looking to do is understand predominantly my works with high performers, understand. The programs that are inefficient, that these high performers have picked up over their life, and then dig into those programs and start to release them. Um, so as I say, they, they can go back to their full potential rather than sort of driving with the breaks on is, is a way a lot of them describe it where they, they know there’s more potential there, but there’s just something holding them back from giving a hundred percent.
Elliot Roe: And oftentimes it’s some kind of fear of failure, fear of success, self-sabotage that’s been generated.
Dr Pedram Shojai: What are the common ones that you see? I mean, you work again with elite athletes and poker players and executives, um, and they’re no different than the rest of us. They’ve got all kinds of crap, right? They, they, they, maybe they could fight through it and push through it better than, than others, but the, the trip ups, the common kind of mental programming that you end up having to, uh, help them see so that they can, um, you know, work around.
Elliot Roe: Um, well, one of, one of the biggest ones is ego protection. I. So in, in so many cases, um, clients are aware they’re not giving a hundred percent. So they’re giving 80% and they can’t bring themselves to bring a hundred because by giving themselves, by only giving the 80%, they, they’re giving themselves an excuse to not succeed.
Elliot Roe: So what they can then say is, um, Hey, if I had tried, I would’ve succeeded. But the reason I failed was because I gave 80%. Uh, and this with high performers, um, repeats over and over and over because they’ve been told all their life that they’re intelligent, that they’re successful, that they can do anything they want to do.
Elliot Roe: And if they give a hundred percent, they find out. But if they give 80%, you know, the cat’s still in the box. We don’t know if it’s alive or it’s dead quite yet. And um, certainly with high performers, this ego protection is, is one of the things I’m working on very very frequently to try and allow them to give a hundred percent.
Elliot Roe: And if they. If it doesn’t work out, we then take that as a data point and something to grow from rather than they’re a failure, they’re not enough, they’re not good enough. And you know, a lot of those fears of, am I good enough? Am I deserving? It all comes from, from childhood and the the way we seek our parent parents’ love and approval.
Dr Pedram Shojai: At the risk of oversimplifying this, I’d like to follow this downstream just just for one more, one more iteration here. So I’m only gonna give 80% so that I have an excuse to say I didn’t try hard enough. That’s why I failed, because I’m afraid of the failure. The repercussions of what my my dad mean to my identity?
Elliot Roe: And yeah,
Dr Pedram Shojai: so, so. then like, downstream from that, are we talking about, uh, a perception of a parent not loving them? Are we talking about a perception of society ridiculing them? Like what do you find one step removed from that? Like when, when failure hits.
Elliot Roe: Well, when we dig into this fear, what, what typically shows up is, um, a very intelligent child at school who initially doesn’t have to work very hard to succeed in exams. And everyone tells ’em, you are already clever, you’re gifted. So they identify with I’m the gifted child, I’m the clever child. Um, and then they start to realize that, hey, if I study for this and I don’t get an a.
Elliot Roe: I’m no longer gifted. I’m no longer special, but if I don’t study, if I get an A, it’s worth even more because I’m super clever. But if I get a B or if I get a C, hey, I, I chose not to study. I didn’t study. If I studied, I would’ve got an A. They’re no longer risking losing their identity. And the, the parental response is, um, you know, it’s in some cases, you know, I’ve had situations where quite clearly the parents were removing love and approval if the, the child wasn’t successful.
Elliot Roe: Um, in other cases it’s imagined. Um, but, but the key thing here is that the ego identifies with, I’m gifted, I’m special, and there can be a loss of that. But the loss of it can only happen if they give a hundred percent because otherwise they have the excuse of, Hey, I, I didn’t really try. So we don’t know where my potential is.
Elliot Roe: And, and it’s that playing out in, in later life. And that, you know, typically they see it at college, they’re doing their essays, you know, a few nights before it’s due, rather than spending months on the essay and. Those sorts of things. And it’s just this repeating pattern that then follows into their careers as well often because, you know, they are intelligent, they are successful people, they’ve, they’ve got themselves to a high level even with this program, which is impressive.
Elliot Roe: Um, but it’s my job to take people from sort of 95% to 98% with that 3% extra being extraordinarily valuable for them. And, and this is one of the holdups that stops them really getting to their highest peak potential.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. And anyone in, um, elite anything understands that that delta of 3% is on the podium or not. Yeah,
Elliot Roe: yeah,
Elliot Roe: it, it’s, it’s the gold or the 10th ,
Dr Pedram Shojai: yeah.
Elliot Roe: you know, it’s not even the gold or the silver, it’s the gold or the 10th. Um, the difference of, of, of that final, final bit of potential and effort being given.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yep. So what specifically, I mean, I mean, I don’t know how far in the weeds we can get here, but I’d love for myself and my audience who’s . You know, on this journey with you to understand what is the process. Okay? So you’ve identified this person who’s, you know, um, playing, playing small ball on purpose for these reasons we’ve identified.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Then what
Dr Pedram Shojai: do you as a hypnotherapist do once you’ve identified this to clear to, to pull this weed?
Elliot Roe: Okay, so, um, what we’re looking for ideally is the sensation that they feel when they know this resistance is coming up. So, hey, when I try and make the sales call, I feel physically sick. When I try and stand on stage, my voice starts to go, my adrenaline rushes. Um, when I ask for investment, I mean with the CEOs I work with, asking for investment is almost always one of their big triggers.
Elliot Roe: So we are, we are looking for, you know, the irrational. The rational action and then the sensation around it. So we’ve got an idea of this sensation they’re feeling, this physical sensation that has no necess, it doesn’t need to be there. Um, but for some reason the subconscious is creating that sensation as a resistance or the discomfort I.
Elliot Roe: Um, we then go into a guided meditation like process. So the, the sort of work I do isn’t like stage hypnosis. There’s no, no one’s collapsing. Um, this is like a guided meditation. So I talk them through this induction and this deeper, and their subconscious becomes dominant. We guide them into a daydream.
Elliot Roe: So then they’re in this vivid daydream and we start bringing up those same feelings where, hey, as you . Go to walk onto the stage to speak, what’s the sensation in your body? And once they’re in this state, they, they can create it with much more accuracy in their mind than in a waking state. So they’ll be able to say, I’m stepping onto the stage.
Elliot Roe: I’m feeling this pressure in my chest, this sickness in my stomach. I’m feeling the tension coming into my body. And from that point, we’ll say, okay. Now I’d like to connect you back to other times in your life you felt the same way. I’d like to trace back this feeling, this memory, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. What’s the next time that.
Elliot Roe: And they’ll bring up another memory and then we’ll go to another memory and another, and we’re sort of going down this route, this line of memories through their life that have created the trigger response. And eventually we’ll end up with some core memory. So I mean, if we stick with the public speaking, one one that comes up often is, I’m doing show and tell.
Elliot Roe: I’m five years old and I make a mistake and the whole class laughs at me. And from that point, they felt humiliated. They believe they’re bad at public speaking from that point of being a five-year-old. And they accept that that’s just something that they cannot do. So, so they then label themselves as a bad public speaker.
Elliot Roe: Um, we go back to that memory from an adult perspective. Uh, show love to the child, forgiveness to the child, and then also try and switch it. In that case, it’d be switching it from a fix to a growth mindset. So, hey, five-year-old. You thought that this meant they were bad at public speaking. I want you to explain to five-year-old you that this is the first time they’ve given a talk.
Elliot Roe: You’re not supposed to be good at doing things the first time that you do them. Um, this is the first step in your evolution as a public speaker. This is a data point for us to work from. How does it feel to see that this is just a data point? This is just your starting point, and this is something that you can work on in the same way that you learn to walk, you learn to swim, you learn to ride a bike.
Elliot Roe: You weren’t expecting to be good at these things instantly. They were a process. And public speaking’s the same thing, so you change it into something where they have a flexibility to improve. And it is the same for any version of memory. Um, so sometimes, um, it’s much more traumatic things than that, but often even with, you know, small t trauma, like, you know, being laughed at in class, there can be an emotional release as we go through this process.
Elliot Roe: So it’s not rare for my clients to be crying at this point, and they sort of released all that trapped emotion that’s been there. That’s, that’s the cause of this trigger. Um, and then as we bring them out. The way they feel as they step onto the stage is different because the memory that was sort of ringing the alarm bell for the subconscious as they stepped on stage no longer exists in the same way.
Elliot Roe: Um, because memory’s a malleable, it’s always changing anyway. And what we’re doing is we’re sort of overwriting the memory to some extent with a more rational adult perspective, with love and comfort, rather than this adrenaline fueled flight or fight or flight memory. That’s currently creating the alarm bell.
Elliot Roe: Um, and we’re just looking to do that in, in as many different areas as possible so that these alarm bells aren’t going off in places that are holding the high performer back.
Dr Pedram Shojai: so. When you’re in psychoanalysis, right? Sitting on some guy’s couch and, and go back.
Dr Pedram Shojai: it might take a few weeks to get to this kind of core memory. Um, and then when you’re in the somatic therapies, you want to feel how this child felt at that time, and then that feeling becomes a part of the healing, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: It’s you, you feel it, to heal it. Um, here I’m, um, what I’m hearing here is there’s. A bit of the feeling and then there’s almost like a, an overwrite, a code overwrite on top of it. So are we feeling the pain and the shame in that moment So, that we can access the memory? Or are we cognitively, you know, looking at it and then saying, okay, there it is.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Now let’s write some new programming. I just wanna, I wanna get,
Elliot Roe: so we’re doing both.
Dr Pedram Shojai: hmm.
Elliot Roe: So we’re going back to the child, you, um, and you’re feeling the sensation. So understanding that that’s where it came from. That’s, that’s what it is. And we’re, we are releasing that, but then we’re stepping outside of it and looking in from the adult perspective.
Elliot Roe: So we’re tracing back the sensations, the feelings to the root cause, feeling, releasing, and then looking in from an adult perspective and reframing and overwriting from the adult perspective.
Elliot Roe: Um, so a good example would be the fear of being bullied as a child. So 7-year-old you is being punched by another 7-year-old kid. Um, 7-year-old you is terrified, and this is life and death and you’ve never been attacked before. So this is a truly fearful moment for that 7-year-old you. Um, so we, so we fear and, and allow that emotion, those feelings to, to mobilize.
Elliot Roe: Um, but then looking in from adult, you seeing a 7-year-old punching another 7-year-old. It’s not a particularly traumatic event. You know, you give the seven yearold a hug and you say, Hey, you’re okay. There’s, there’s nothing to worry about here. You get through
Dr Pedram Shojai: No one’s dying Um, nobody’s dying today, but seven-year-old.
Elliot Roe: You thought
Elliot Roe: he might. and that’s the difference. Um, so by reframing it this way from the adult perspective, we are not overriding it with a lie. We’re actually overriding it with the truth. And this is where I was talking about it being more deprogramming. So 7-year-old, you programmed this as there are life and death threats happening to me.
Elliot Roe: I need to be excessively vigilant. I need to have this high state of anxiety because this is a dangerous world that I
Elliot Roe: live in. Um, but adult, you can see the truth that this is just two boys having a fight in the playground. And that’s a dramatically different situation. So we’re removing that narrative that the 7-year-old has created, which, you know, oftentimes the narrative a 7-year-old creates isn’t the one you want to be running in your forties.
Elliot Roe: You know, , you don’t want
Elliot Roe: these, um, these narratives running and. I, I find it really interesting if you look at people in high stress moments, so if someone’s expressing anxiety or they’re expressing anger, um, you know, or any other big emotion, um, oftentimes you, you can just see the sort of age that they picked up that issue.
Elliot Roe: So the level of tantrum that they’re throwing, you know, the person who’s in the car and they’re angry at being cut off, um, you can see it’s five-year-old them, you know, they, that program has turned on it’s press play and they’re playing what worked as a five-year-old to get their own way. And if they threw a tantrum, their mom would give them what they wanted.
Elliot Roe: And now that person driving the car is throwing the five-year-old’s tantrum. And until that program has finished. They’re, they’re effectively five and the same with anxiety and the way that people respond in, in high fear situations. But I, I view the way humans work as extraordinarily basic. Um. And, I view this work as to some extent, more of an art than a science at the moment.
Elliot Roe: Um, but I see this as we have learned these programs to protect ourselves and we just, you know, something triggers us. It presses play, and we run through the process until we do some kind of work or therapy to stop that. Program or adjust that program so that a different one is played. Um, and, and it’s just sort of a, a repeating of, of this in different areas of our life.
Elliot Roe: And, you know, for some people it’s very extreme. And, you know, as someone who’s a, I would say a more normal therapist, um, is trying to take people from the 20 percentile to 60%. They’re trying to change their lives in that way, and they’re dealing with extreme trauma and, and the anger they have or the anxiety they have is absolutely disrupting their life.
Elliot Roe: Um, in my case, I, as I say, I’m taking people from 95 to 98. It, it’s much more subtle. Um, so I’m, I’m working with. Usually, I mean some trauma, but you know, more, more subtle changes in the way that these programs are running, where they’re running relatively efficiently. But we’re trying to make them absolutely optimal because they’re competing at the highest levels in whether it’s business trading, sports, or gambling.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So the variable that. I’m hearing in this,
Dr Pedram Shojai: um, you know, there’s a lot of methodology that that one can talk about, but the real variable I’m hearing the undercurrent is this subconscious. What is the subconscious and how are we effectively getting change in these individuals by tapping into their subconscious versus, you know, talking it out or feeling it.
Dr Pedram Shojai: And so let, let’s talk about the subconscious, what it means to hypnotherapy and how you access it and the work that you do.
Elliot Roe: So, so my view of the subconscious is that it’s, um, purely sort of the, the protection mechanism to keep us alive. I. And it is running the program in the background. So, so to elicit the subconscious, as I go said earlier, we go through this induction and deepen a technique like guided of meditation that takes you into a vivid daydream.
Elliot Roe: Um, so once you are sitting there and you’re saying, Hey, and I’m saying, Hey, you’re sitting on a beach, what does that beach feel like? And just saying, oh, the sand’s beneath my feet. I can feel the warmth of my sun on my skin. I can feel the cool breeze. I’m relaxing. Um. We know that you are not, you’re, you’re sitting talking to me on Zoom , but you’re describing a vivid picture.
Elliot Roe: Um, and that’s when we know that you’re now in the state where the subconscious is dominant because we we’re now no longer in reality. So, so we’re looking to get to this very vivid daydream like state. Um. And then we’re in communication with the subconscious and we can sort of retrain and reprogram it.
Elliot Roe: It’s a little bit like, um, I see talking therapy for the majority of the time is like you’re in the windows system of a computer and then the, the subconscious modalities is you’re in the Doss system that’s behind the windows and you’re changing the code. So, So, that’s the way I visualize it in my mind.
Elliot Roe: Um. I view the subconscious as, um, a survival mechanism that is only interested as to whether you have shelter, food, and ideally a partner, right? And that’s why it’s so often in conflict with high success. So your subconscious is happy if you went to bed at night, got fed, and ideally you have a woman sleeping next to you.
Elliot Roe: Or if you’re a woman, a man sleeping next to you or a partner of your choice. Um. It doesn’t care if you are rich, if you’re successful, it doesn’t care about your status in society. It’s concerned with your physical safety. And if you live to the end of the day, it’s done its job and then tomorrow it’s gonna try and get you to do the same thing.
Elliot Roe: Um, and all of these programs, it’s learned. It just adds to its list of things it has to protect you from. Um, the problem with this is, this is why it’s so hard to release people from people to get out of their comfort zones. Because your comfort zone is exactly where your subconscious wants to keep you.
Elliot Roe: Um, because change is effectively dangerous if you’ve already got all of your basic needs met. So, hey, if I become successful, um, what does that mean to my basic needs? Am I gonna lose my tribe? Are the people around me gonna stop liking me? Um, if I become successful, is that a dangerous place? Am I, are people gonna try and steal from me?
Elliot Roe: Um, am I in danger? So a lot of the time, you know, the, the stepping on the stage, um, am I gonna be judged by the people watching, you know, stepping on stage in a tribe, going to the front and talking about what your beliefs are, you know, 10,000 years ago could be a very dangerous thing to do. Um, it’s not as dangerous anymore, but the subconscious has got a lot of programming from the past.
Elliot Roe: And, and as I say, we’ve picked up these fears of judgment through our childhood and. The way that, that I like to see this is sort of a negotiation with the subconscious is to, to untraining the deep deprogramming, the programs that came from childhood, um, and resetting what feels safe. So, I mean, you will have heard lots of people said over the years you work in this sort of.
Elliot Roe: Industry that, um, your mind doesn’t really know the difference between reality and a vivid visualization. So we have the research of people imagining lifting weights and they become stronger, those sorts of things, um, by showing your subconscious. So one we deprogram, but the other thing we do is we show the future, the success in the future as being a safe thing.
Elliot Roe: So we are visualizing that future success, we’re future pacing it and making the subconscious feel comfortable with that reality. And once the subconscious feels comfortable with the reality, it’s vastly less likely that we’ll, we’ll self-sabotage when we reach it. And I think one of the sort of best examples of what happens if you don’t do the mindset work around wealth is what happens to lottery winners.
Elliot Roe: So, you know, their subconscious is desperately trying to bring them back to where they were. And this is why so many lottery winners lose the vast majority of their money over the first few years of winning. You know, such extraordinary money. You would think there is no way they can ever struggle with money again.
Elliot Roe: And many of them end up bankrupt. And that’s because their subconscious is saying, this is not normal, this is not safe. I’m trying to get us back to where we used to be to our comfort zone because they haven’t done the mindset work before. This has just come as a shot, you know, a surprise. Um. And, you know, they’re just self-sabotaging to get themselves back to where they know is safe.
Elliot Roe: Um, and and this is why this sort of work is, is so important as you’re, as you’re moving through life and you’re trying to reach a new levels of success, there’s always gonna be these barriers where something feels uncomfortable. And, and it’s doing the work to help the subconscious accept that you want to get through that barrier.
Elliot Roe: And it’s safe to get through that barrier, and it’s preferable to get through it. Um, otherwise you find yourself, um. Often sticking to a comfortable financial level and bouncing around this sort of wealth thermostat of, you know, I’ve had people where it’s 50,000, a hundred thousand, 5 million, 10 million, what, whatever number it is.
Elliot Roe: People often bounce around the same number, and the number is just what makes them feel safe. And if it goes up, they bring themselves down and if it goes down, they bring themselves up. But there’s a number that they feel is correct for them, that they’re deserving of, that they’re safe at. And, and that, and that’s really the process.
Elliot Roe: That’s what I see the subconscious as. I see it, as this protection mechanism. Um, that’s sort of more base than, um, than our logical minds. Um, but it’s just trying to, trying to keep you safe and is, you know, feeling happy with itself. If, if you go to bed at night with a full belly.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I feel like it should be obvious to us what the, the clues or the hints are, but obviously it isn’t because we’re stumbling around and, you know, doing do, doing the thing without being aware of it. The guy who’s up and down, you know, at his $5 million thermostat versus the guy who’s always broke, the guy who always creates drama in his relationships.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Uh, you know, the, the examples can go on and on. So how, what are the telltale signs that our programming is getting in the way of our growth? What are the telltale signs that our survival mechanisms are, um, popping up and keeping us from our potential? How do you find them?
Elliot Roe: Um, the way I, I would, I would look at it is the first sign is definitely repeating patterns. So, um, you mentioned relationships. Oh, you know, all of my partners always cheat on me. I. Okay. That’s interesting. . You know, like that’s, or, um, you know, every time I, all my business partners steal from me, um, every time I invest, I lose money.
Elliot Roe: Um, every time I make money, I find a way of giving it away. Um, you know, abusive relationships, a lot of the time people are in these cycles of finding abuses over and over again. Um, anything where it’s like you are telling your friends and family that this keeps happening to you, oftentimes it’s you. And you’re not aware of it.
Elliot Roe: So that’s the first thing I would look for is, is, is that pattern. Um, the second thing I would look for, and most of my clients come to me with this, and it is very vague, but I, but I think most of us can connect into it to some sense, and that’s, I don’t know what is off, but I know something is. I can’t describe to you where I’m not reaching my full potential, but I know there’s a gap and I can feel that I’m holding myself back, but I can’t quite put words to it.
Elliot Roe: That’s the usual first few lines of a client consultation call from me. So I’ll say, why you reaching out? And they’ll say, I don’t know, but I know that there’s something,
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. Especially if it’s right under the radar. Right. And it’s been there. Uh. Uh, unconscious protective mechanism. You don’t question It ’cause it’s part of your It is just you. Yeah. I mean, and that’s, and that’s another part of this is so many people view themselves in a certain way so that, you know, one, I mean some of the things I described there is just unlucky. Um, but, but another can be just, I’m an anxious person. I’m an angry person. Um. I’m an emotional person and, and it’s like, no, you’ve, you’ve learned to be anxious.
Elliot Roe: You’ve learned to be angry.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Hmm.
Elliot Roe: And I, and I think if you can change that framing to I’ve learnt these behaviors, then unlearning them is dramatically easier.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, that, that’s a huge it’s innately you. That’s a huge distinction.
Elliot Roe: I, it gives people the, it gives people the space to improve and become better.
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Back to the show.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Hmm.
Elliot Roe: Um, and, and that’s, that’s the space I like to create.
Elliot Roe: And, um, I, I, think, again, if any of your audience are listening to this, if you are describing yourself as an anxious or an angry person, just change the language to that.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Hmm.
Elliot Roe: So, oh, I learned to be anxious. Okay. Like, how do we on learn that?
Dr Pedram Shojai: I learned to be impulsive. Hmm. Now a lot of what you’re talking about . In functional medicine, we’d fold back on and be like, oh, there’s just too much stress on this animal system. Right. The cortisol levels are high. They, they are living in the amygdala and, um, you know, being, um, impulsive because their prefrontal cortex isn’t activated.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Right. And so there’s a lot of kind of medical rational rationale that?
Dr Pedram Shojai: you can, uh, attribute to this and say, well, this is a stressed out animal. And it’s, you know, back, back is against the wall, right.
Elliot Roe: Hmm.
Dr Pedram Shojai: The reality still remains that these mechanisms are being triggered, um, by the way you feel. And then these are programs that you are enacting, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: They’re not you. These are programs.
Elliot Roe: Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: How much do you look at, and again, I don’t know if this is part of your gestalt or not, like, but when you tell me, Hey, you know this, we put someone in a daydreaming state. to me, I’m like, okay, that’s theta wave activation of their brain. And you know, there are all these people tripping on this stuff now, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: Saying, okay, we’re gonna give you theta wave, you know, on a headset and get you into this kind of, you know, induction phase. How much of that has proven to be useful in your work? How much of it is, is less relevant to what you do?
Elliot Roe: I, I actually follow a completely narrative based process. So from my side, you know, I’m, I’m not using technology or tools and again, I, I see it as, um, extraordinarily simplistic process. So, yes, you know, there, there are ways to adjust your brainwaves, you know, you can practice on any of the brainwave monitors.
Elliot Roe: Um, but. My belief is the important thing here is, is the guidance through a narrative and then an objective third party perspective to be able to bring you into logic and release the fears that you believe. The problem with fears is everyone believes their fears are rational to some extent. So in, you know, the thing that they’re scared of, they, they believe there’s a good reason for them to be uncomfortable and scared, even if not on a rational level, at a subconscious level, there’s, they believe there’s a reason to be uncomfortable with it.
Elliot Roe: And so I see this as, as more like a, a dance between the coach and the client to basically, um, elicit change in the subconscious. So we’re working together sort of the client’s rational mind and, and the coach’s rational mind working together against the subconscious of the client to help them live life in a better way.
Elliot Roe: Um, so, so I sort of, I, I view it much more through that framework. I mean, I do definitely see changes, um, when clients are looking after themselves differently, so as, as well as the, obviously the mindset work that I’m describing to you and the high performance work. There’s also the, the changes are easier to elicit once they start looking after themselves.
Elliot Roe: So once they’re exercising, when they’re using the sauna, when they’re meditating in their free time. So there is definitely a shift. When we do start impacting the physiology as well, um, there can be some big changes that happen, but often it’s quite hard to get them to make those changes until we’ve done some of the initial sessions and overcome the, the sabotage that’s there.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: that’s a big one, right? I, you know, oftentimes in, in clinic would, you know, someone would come in and spend thousands of dollars on a bunch of, you know, elaborate tests and, you know, be like, Eureka, I found it. You know, here it is. We, we, we figured out what’s wrong with you. Um, here’s your program, here’s your plan.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Here’s your diet. Here’s all your stuff. You know, happy days high five. And lo and behold, they don’t follow. The instructions, right? They are non-compliant. They’re self-sabotaging. And you know, this is, this became my bane early in my career. , right? It’s just like, dude, I,
Elliot Roe: So we have the answer.
Elliot Roe: Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: yeah. We have the answer. Like, I found it. And, and they wouldn’t follow through. And their barometer was set to illness. Their, you know, their, their thermometer or whatever you wanna call it, was set to illness. It was set to suck, right? Like, they, they needed life to, to suck for some reason. And you, I think are right on the, the, the pain point of that here in that there was some reason they needed to, and it was their defense mechanisms.
Elliot Roe: And, and remember, that’s their comfort zone. I’m talking about the subconscious here. Pain and discomfort is in their comfort zone because that’s how they’ve communicated with the world. It’s very scary if, if you’ve been long-term disabled or long-term, ill, there are a lot of things in your life. There are a lot of conversations you have where they are, the conversations you have, you know, you are the person with the bad leg and that’s your conversation piece.
Elliot Roe: And that’s why in some ways, you know, that might be why you’re given attention. You might be scared of you losing friendships, relationships, your, your relationship being different if you are better. What does it mean to the level, the amount of housework you have to do? What does it mean about your success in life that you have to have if you no longer have this excuse holding you back?
Elliot Roe: It can be very scary. Letting go of ill health. If you’ve been in long-term mental health and. I think that’s a part of the process when people don’t follow their protocols is there’s a fear to overcome of what it means to them if they’re better. And one of the questions I’ll ask clients who, if they, if they do have a long-term sickness, is, um, what are you scared of losing if you get better?
Elliot Roe: And you know, we usually have some silence, and quite often they can come up with a decent sized list of the things that they’re scared of losing if they get rid of their issue.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Give us some examples ’cause I know people listening right now, Um, guarantee you have a number of these things on their list, so, uh, help.
Elliot Roe: Um, the first is attention.
Elliot Roe: So the, the, fact that they might lose attention from partners or family or friends, that people are visiting them and they’re scared that these people aren’t gonna bother with them unless there’s a special reason to. So that one comes up quite frequently. Um, another is, I’ll lose my excuse, and again, this is a little bit like the, the protection of the ego thing before, so they lose their success, their excuse to not be successful and, and not be where they want to be in life.
Elliot Roe: So, actually wait a minute, if I’m better. Then I’m gonna have to do something, you know, and that’s, that’s a difficult thing. Um, and then there’s special attention. Um, you know, it’s, it’s not nice having to be helped around an airport. Um, but in some ways it might be nice. And, and there’s these, these sort of, these dualities of these situations where, you know, cutting in line, sometimes you feel special.
Elliot Roe: You know, there, there are things that you’re gonna be giving up if your health is in, in better shape, and, and I would, as I say, anyone who, who is dealing with the long-term illness. I’m not saying that it’s psychological, but I just say certainly if you’re finding yourself refusing to follow protocols, that will make you better.
Elliot Roe: I. Really dig into, yeah, what do I lose? I know there are gonna be some great things about being better, but what are the things you’re scared of changing? Scared of losing? And spend some time working through those fears, because I think that that’s gonna be much more likely where you can find the shift in mindset around then following the protocols and the way that you should be.
Dr Pedram Shojai: There was a subset of patients that were the doctor shoppers that would come through my clinics, right.
Dr Pedram Shojai: And, um, quickly in my youth, I realized that these folks needed attention and weren’t getting it in their lives. And so they would pay. For attention, right? They would pay for attention from masseuse.
Dr Pedram Shojai: They would pay for the doctors, they would pay for all this stuff, but they needed somebody to hear them and listen and they weren’t feeling heard. Um, but that that same subset of people were also, uh, reluctant to follow advice. ’cause then they would lose that currency, right? Then, you know, why, why do you need to see me?
Dr Pedram Shojai: You’re better
Elliot Roe: Yeah. And, and again, that’s, they’re getting attention from a professional who cares about ’em.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.
Elliot Roe: Um, that, that’s a scary thing to lose. If, if that’s where you’re getting your attention in life. We are social creatures. Um, and again, this is a pattern that’s been learned by somebody that, hey, that that’s where, that’s an easy place for a safe place for me to get my attention.
Elliot Roe: And you know, what could be safer than getting the attention from a doctor?
Elliot Roe: Like there isn’t, there isn’t safer attention than that. Um, so, so again, it’s sort of digging into those patterns of where did that get learned, why are there fears around attention from other people? Um, why is this the easiest route?
Elliot Roe: Um, and, and what would it feel like to release that illness and follow the protocols and, and solve the issue? Um, you know, you, if you are ever feeling disappointed that a doctor tells you how to get better, that should be a big alarm bell for you.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. Yeah. So when you.
Dr Pedram Shojai: become aware of this, um,
Dr Pedram Shojai: and you are like, oh, I think I’m pressing up against my money issues, my attention issues and all this, are there any breathing techniques or mental techniques that you could recommend for our listeners? You know, short of . Seeing, I mean, you’re expensive, you’re hard to get to.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, and I know you have a couple tools that you’ve developed that, that are helpful, but just in the moment I’m driving my car, the guy cut me off, uh, angry me is showing up. What do I do there? What do I do In that moment, I.
Elliot Roe: Um, I, I think the first thing to do I is try and label it as not yourself. Label it as five-year-old you, so you’re starting to feel the attention rising. Take a deep breath and try and laugh and smile about the fact that five-year-old showing up. Because if you can add humor to the situation, you can separate it from yourself.
Elliot Roe: Like, this isn’t me, this is five-year-old me. If you can interject that logic in that moment, you have a decent chance of cutting off the issue. It won’t always work and the triggers will still be there, but at least if you can elicit humor and, and give it a name. So name it when, whether it was 5-year-old you or a 10-year-old, you, whatever it might be, by naming it and creating a separation, it’s no longer you, it’s just a thing that’s showing up and that can be very powerful.
Elliot Roe: Um. Really, I mean, I, I, I’m a very strong proponent for, for the, the subconscious modalities. I do. I mean, we have a team of coaches at all sorts of price points, and there are also people doing this type of subconscious work all around the country, all around the world. Um, if you are hitting really big barriers that are impacting your life, um, you, you should really consider making an investment and, and putting some of the deep work in, because it can be so life changing and.
Elliot Roe: The, the sort of the returns on investment if you’re no longer self-sabotaging are extraordinary. Um, especially if you’re, if you’re, if you’re seeing those repeating patterns that I was describing earlier, um, you, you just, you just want to be able to turn that pattern off because it can be extraordinarily stressful and extraordinarily expensive if you don’t.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, the over the years. I’ve been around the block and, you know, look, you get the somatic therapies, you have, you know, re-parenting. There’s, there’s all sorts of stuff out there that kind of brushes up against what we’ve been talking about here. Um,
Elliot Roe: Hmm.
Dr Pedram Shojai: but the metaphor, and this might be an old metaphor, but in the old days, if you had a, a computer.
Dr Pedram Shojai: That had a virus on it, you would have a separate disc that you would load in with the virus.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Virus program,
Dr Pedram Shojai: checking programming that would then run through the the faulty operating system, find the virus from outside of the system that was infected. Clear the virus so that then the system could, could operate again.
Dr Pedram Shojai: And I, I feel like that metaphor works in this case for subconscious programming. It’s really hard to diagnose and fix from the same brain or the same mind that has the programming.
Elliot Roe: And, and I think that’s a, that’s a really good way of describing it because a lot of people are, you know, how do I do this on my own? And it’s like, well, the problem is it’s your blind spot. And I, I think a good way of describing this is if you look through your life at your friends and your family, um, there are, you can always fix everyone else’s problems.
Elliot Roe: You can always say, Hey, you know, they’re with the wrong person, that’s the wrong girlfriend for them. Or, why do they keep doing this and their money? It doesn’t make any sense. They should be doing X, Y, or Z. Um, and, and looking in from the outside, it’s easy to understand, but those individuals don’t know that that’s the issue or they can’t accept it even if you tell them and we’re all in the same spot.
Elliot Roe: So other people looking at our lives, it’s no different from us looking at them. They can see the blind spots that we have. And you know, I’ve been doing this since 2010, so what’s 13 years now? Um, and I’m still seeing a coach every two weeks. Um, and I’ve been doing that the whole time. And it’s because I’m aware that.
Elliot Roe: As much as I do this, I can’t see my own blind spots. And just, if I can keep sharpening the blade and sharpening the blade and sharpening the blade, I’m gonna be more effective in my life and my work. Um, so I, I wouldn’t, so I think the key thing here is don’t see it as a flaw that you can’t fix your own issues or just accept that I.
Elliot Roe: We are all blind to our own issues, and that’s why there are issues. If we knew exactly where they were, where they came from, why they’re there, we, we would be able to work around them, but we just can’t. Um, and this is sort of a, a journey of discovery and typically it’s easier through, through an external person’s viewpoint.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, and that’s probably why we have each other. Right. Um, we grew up in, uh, society, whether it was small hunter gatherer tribes and, you know, kind of extending out from there. But, you know, my wife chases me around with tweezers, plucking hair off the top of my ear ’cause I can’t see it.
Elliot Roe: Yeah,
Dr Pedram Shojai: deifying, the
Elliot Roe: the grooming, the groom, the grooming of the.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Well, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not very far from, uh, animal Planet, right? . So I know. Look, the access is always a challenge, right? Like you deal with elite level. I. Folks, and you know, it’s, it’s hard to get, you know, people say the same thing about functional medicine, it’s damn expensive. Right. And so, you know,
Dr Pedram Shojai: part of my mission has been trying to democratize that and give people information and, you know, do all these things to help people help themselves because, you know, stuff’s expensive, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, so you’ve come up with . Tier, uh, including a free app to help folks with this. And that’s, you know, it’s, you’re my favorite kind of person, right? It’s like, look, I, I might be functioning at this really high level, but I wanna help everybody. So tell me what you’ve created to help folks.
Elliot Roe: So, so what we have, we have prime mind. Um, so you can download it for free on iPhone or Android. Um, there is a paid upgrade. But there are about 40 hypnotherapy suggestion audios that you can listen to, um, with sleep and confidence and improving your life and improving your day and all of those sorts of things.
Elliot Roe: Um, so that people can start doing the work literally with no investment. So long as you have a phone, um, you can download it. So it’s called Primed Mind. Um, and as I say, it’s just on, on both of the app stores. Um, and then if you want to get into the coaching, um, the other thing I created was I, I’ve trained.
Elliot Roe: Other coaches in, in my version of hypnotherapy. So I, I take on qualified hypnotherapist and then I’ve got my own take on it, um, which is, I think why I’ve become more successful. And I, I’ve trained them in my version, my take of hypnotherapy. Um, and we have that all sorts of price points as well. So what I wanted to do is make sure that there was.
Elliot Roe: Literally nobody who, if they wanted help, wouldn’t be able to get help in some way. So all the way from free, um, to working with me as an investment and I’m only working with, you know, top performance in different industries. I’m, I’m not a good fit for most people, but we, we do have a team where there should be somebody I.
Elliot Roe: Who’s a great fit in the team, or certainly, I mean, the app is free. Um, so, so you can try it for free, download it, and as I say, I think there are around 400 audios if you pay for the upgrade. But the 40 to start with, um, there’s a lot to try there and work through and we just wanted to make sure everyone was covered and, and that was sort of the thesis behind it.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I really appreciate that. I appreciate that perspective. Um. Final question. We’re running outta time. How long, right. People are always looking at, you know, ROI, right? How long before people start seeing results, start feeling results and start seeing, you know, the, the, the, the wobble in their life and things changing.
Elliot Roe: Uh, it’s not abnormal with hypnotherapy for it to be in the first few sessions. so you can see change. It’s not gonna be the fix, it’s not the solution. Entire solution, but it’s quite normal. Like I’ll have people do, clients do a first session and it’s not abnormal for them to say things are really different to how they were before.
Elliot Roe: Um, and the different might be that they’re, they’re coming with an issue that’s a nine out of 10 and it’s now a seven. But the seven means they can now work it on, work on it themselves in a different way because they haven’t got the same level of resistance. Um, but I mean, I, I sell packets of 10 sessions.
Elliot Roe: They’re usually used over six, eight months. And, um, usually after the first few sessions, we’re already, we’re talking about the changes. In the following sessions, like, what’s changed, what hasn’t changed? And obviously there’s a process we have to hit things from different directions, but this isn’t like traditional talking therapy where there’ll be months of sessions before you should see some impact.
Elliot Roe: Um, you know, in the first five sessions, there should be very sub substantial impact from a subconscious modality. Certainly some level of change. I, I don’t like to use the word cure, but certainly change you. You should notice in the first few sessions if you’re working with. A hypnotherapist who’s getting to the root core of the cause, root cause of the issues.
Elliot Roe: Um, and, and I would look for someone, whether you work with my team or, or, or someone else, I am very strongly biased towards this regression based inner child work and parts therapy, um, rather than purely suggestion based hypnotherapy. So if you’re in a session, um, I would recommend that your, um. You are speaking more than the therapist.
Elliot Roe: If it’s just them speaking at you personally, I don’t think that’s gonna have the same impact. So, so if you’re looking into this industry, just make make sure that you’re really digging in, that you’re talking about the hard stuff. You’re going to the places that are uncomfortable because that’s where the gold is.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I really app. I really appreciate that perspective too because I feel like there’s a lot of people that want to . Sin and say Hail Marys and just kind of overwrite things versus heal things and the modalities and the practices that I’ve found to be most effective with my patients over the years.
Dr Pedram Shojai: And look, I’ve been around the block. I used to have a lot of hair is the ones that. Really dig into healing the person, their history, their past, their childhood, versus saying, you know what that was then this is now, um, you know, starting over. Forget about that. You know, I just, I’ve never seen that effectively work.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I’ve always seen that as something that is a stop gap that ends up blowing up later. It, it, it’s a bandaid. It’s not healing the wound, it’s putting a bandaid over it, and it can work for a while. Um, but just be aware if, if someone’s just saying, Hey, just forget about the past. Like, your subconscious hasn’t forgotten, , where you wanna forget, like the, these programs are still gonna run if the triggers come up, if you haven’t done the dark, difficult work.
Elliot Roe: And yeah, that’s, that’s the way, the way that I view this.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, . Yeah. And listen, do the work. Feel better. Can’t I somehow, I feel like I say that in every podcast with my guests is like, you know, the real work is work. Um, but when you do it, then your life kicks ass. And, and everyone’s like, wow, look at them. And those are the people that, that just did the work that cleared their, cleared their history and their, their programming and all the things that we talked about for the last hour.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, listen. The stuff’s in the app store, first place to start. And if someone wanted to work with someone on your team, um, can they go through the app or is there a different way to do it?
Elliot Roe: so you can, uh, on the app there, there, I think there’s a coaching link or go to, um. And you’ll see there’s a coaching application and you fill it out and we’ll get you to the right member of the team depending on what you say that you’re looking for. So if you go to LELL iot r oe.com, um, and there’s a coaching application form there, so that’s the best place to look.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Man, I really appreciate it. I appreciate the work that you’re doing, and I like your voice. Um, I feel like I, I, I feel like
Elliot Roe: part of my career,
Dr Pedram Shojai: I know, I feel stay in character. I.
Elliot Roe: Well, well enjoy a nice relaxed day now. Pedro
Dr Pedram Shojai: Thank you. All right. Really appreciate it. Um, hope to see you again sometime and, uh, keep, keep up the good work. I I, I like your perspective on all this.
Elliot Roe: I appreciate you and thanks for having me on the show.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Thank you.
All right. That’s it hope you enjoyed it. Cool guy doing cool stuff, helping you get out of your own way. It seems like a win to me. Let me. know how you like the show, wherever you’re listening, give us like you have so subscribe. If you haven’t done so already and I’ll keep them coming your way.