Meet Deborah Kagan
Deborah Kagan is an author and mentor with years of practice being a turned-on woman. She supports entrepreneurs, small business owners, consultants, creatives and the career-oriented to tap into their innate power and connect with their mojo – a source of true self-esteem.
Her methods combine over 25 years of experience in personal development, metaphysical studies, and embodiment practices. She is the author of Find Your ME Spot: 52 Ways to Reclaim Your Confidence, Feel Good in Your Own Skin and Live a Turned On Life and creator of the Rock Your Mojo™ Programs. She is also the host of The Real Undressed Podcast. Deborah’s upcoming book Undressed: An Invitation to Claim Your Erotic Nature (Urano World) will be released on October 24, 2023. Featuring real-life, candid stories from Deborah’s past personal sexual and relationship experiences, Undressed demonstrates the profound personal journey of discovering one’s erotic nature and awakening sexually. Undressed rips the bandage off the stigma of the turned-on woman, inviting readers to become erotically alive.
Listen to the episode on Spotify here or on your favorite podcast platform.
Podcast transcript:
Back with the urban monk podcast. This one again, it’s about sex. I seem to be doing a lot on that subject. If this topic offends you, you should probably listen. Um, the expert, uh, has a lot of wonderful things to say, Uh, I thought Deborah was delightful. And, uh, it’s really important to get past some of our stigmas and find the healing on the other side of our sexuality.
Enjoy.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Oh, welcome to the podcast. Um, happy to be talking about a subject near and dear to my heart. Um, and you’ve been talking about this for a minute, so I’m happy to have you here.
Deborah Kagan: It’s been a minute. Yeah. So I’m so glad to meet you and I’m really glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, thanks for bringing this out into the open. Um, you know, that’s, it’s, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, the, the, the shaming, the just, all the crap that goes into people attacking characters and assaulting, you know, how dare you talk about, you know, taboo subjects, um, which shouldn’t even be taboo. Um,
Dr Pedram Shojai: We’re, we’re a pretty big deal. Now we live in a world where we can talk about stuff. Um, and I think a lot of people still haven’t given themselves permission, so people like you help that happen. Right.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So, um, I would love for you to just give, give a brief journey on how you got here in this conversation.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Uh, or, you know, or specifically around the new book.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. You know, it’s so interesting ’cause you’re like, oh, taboo subject. And I just laugh about that because how I got here is like how pretty much all of us got here. Two people had sex Okay. And, and made me a human, uh, right. And then my mother, um, grew me in her belly and, uh, and here, and here I am. And it’s so. Ironic that still in this day and age, you know, of our 21st century, that sex is still so stigmatized and has such taboo around it because we all got here from it, right? I mean, just from a biological perspective, So, okay. That said, um, but for me, I think, you know, like many people out there, I grew up in a functionally dysfunctional household, and I. I was very interested, I think at a young age, as we all are when we’re kids and when we’re, you know, I like say when, you know, we’re just still kind of close to, um, close to the other side from once we came. Very interested in my body, very interested in like what it does and why is yours a little different than mine and. And you know, in this new book of mine, undressed, I write about in the intro a moment I had with a little boy who lived across the street. We were probably about five. and we were doing what kids do, right? Like, what’s yours and oh, that’s mine and you know, doctor, or whatever it might have been. And an adult came in and of course shamed us, uh, mercilessly. And it was confusing to me at that time. But it, right, it planted the seed that there’s something wrong with me. And there’s something wrong with this exploration, with this. Just simple being in our bodies. We’ll cut to again. My folks got divorced, grew up in a, you know, very dysfunctional and abusive household with my mom and her second husband. I was raped the first time I had sex. And all of that led to. Behaviors that are very normal after you go through those things, but certainly did not fulfill my spirit. They certainly didn’t fulfill, um, a sense of genuine confidence. They were fulfilling on the dysfunction and the trauma that was now living in my body. And when I, I’m originally from New York City and when I went, um, I moved to Los Angeles, um, 30 years ago. I used to work in the film business on the producing end of things. But you see, I believe everything does happen for a reason and that, that we had get signs everywhere while I thought I was coming to LA to be a producer in the film business. I had a great job, fabulous job, um, was, you know, kind of at the top of my game for somebody just fresh outta college. And what happened was I actually got to come out of the metaphysical closet. I. And being in LA lots of people interested in meditation and alternative, um, ways of living. You know, now they’re just normal ’cause it’s called Healthy Ways of Living Right.
Deborah Kagan: And healthy lifestyle. Um, but back then it was still kind of alternative and it emboldened me to go down a path of my own healing on a deeper level. I had done lots of therapy, which is great. Um, this being in Los Angeles and in this environment gave me the opportunity to start to really investigate the energetic side of life. And when I say energetic, I, I feel, you know, you’re with me on this. Um, for all of our listeners, I just, uh, my request is that if we can all be in the same pool of understanding that everything is energy. Is that cool? I feel
Deborah Kagan: like I swim in that pool.
Deborah Kagan: you write that and how amazing that over right these last number of decades, so like quantum physics has become really cool and interesting and has proven in their wonderful documentaries that prove like there are scientific proof now that there is this thing called energy that actually moves all of us and all of life forward. Now meta physicians and, you know, um, Qigong Masters and Tai Chi Masters and martial arts masters. Right. And, um, they’ve known this, uh, and you know, Chinese medicine practitioners, right? They’ve known this for thousands and thousands of years, but now we’ve got scientific proof from the West right. That makes it acceptable.
Deborah Kagan: And I’m, I’m grateful for that.
Dr Pedram Shojai: yeah, yeah. We, for some reason we need that, right? Like we need daddy to bless it. Um, in order for it to go in this culture.
Deborah Kagan: Exactly. And it, we just need that for our minds, which are constantly looking to survive. And definitely in this culture, right? Uh, the mind is, uh, ruled as the, uh, you know, the all being place to be. However, how I actually got to this place, so, so in Los Angeles, you know, really discovering so much more. And, um, along the way, uh, I had got married to a wonderful man, um, and we were friends for a couple of years and you know, we both were like In the end, we should have stayed friends, right? That was really our, our better dynamic. So we parted ways and it was during that time that a lot of the old trauma that I mentioned started to pop up, was starting to kind of bubble up in my body again. I. And I said, okay, once this, you know, I, I went on my own.
Deborah Kagan: I said, I am going to dedicate myself ’cause I felt like I had lost my mojo. And mojo’s just another word for qy, prana, whatever life force, whichever word you like to use for it. Over here we call it mojo. Um, and so basically I went on a path and said, okay, I am going to learn and, and really deeply understand what it means to be a woman who is so comfortable in her own skin. What it means to be a woman who owns her sensuality, her sexuality with really just the fullness, mind, body, and soul. No apologies, it and U, and utilizing it so it does fuel. You know, your spirit and it’s it’s about an actual sacredness for yourself and whoever you choose to share it with. That was the journey that I went on, and my philanthropy is definitely in the space of helping to create, um, communities and, uh, certainly for women, uh, spaces that are free from violence or if you’ve gone through that, to be able to transmute that from your, your body in a somatic way. And, uh, and like everything, at least in in my world, uh, I got a very clear message. I like to call ’em shoves from above Okay. I don’t know if you have like intuitive hits. Um, and mine said to me, uh, over 15 years ago that it was absolutely time to start this specific conversation. About how to be comfortable in our skin as a woman with our sensuality, with our sexuality, with intimate relating.
Deborah Kagan: What does that mean? And I created a space outta my living room, you know, invited women and it quickly grew out of the living room ’cause it was such a deep need and, uh, and deeply felt. And then it has been, uh, you know, birthed the business that I currently have and continue to grow. And it birthed this book for sure, undressed.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, a lot there. Sh Yeah. shove sh shove from above and a shove from below. And there is something that really is interesting in that dynamic of, uh, you know, your first sexual encounter was rape. probably not the way you would’ve written it, you know, as a little girl. That’s how it came. And that drove you into the, the, the karmic path, frankly, that you’re on now.
Deborah Kagan: Mm-Hmm. And, in this, in this dialogue, in this inquiry, um. The healing of that, right? Some people will go, they’ll become hypersexual. Some people will become asexual. Some people will, uh, change their sex. Somebody, some, somebody will judge sex. You know, there’s so many directions people go with that pain
Deborah Kagan: Right.
Dr Pedram Shojai: and not learn to metabolize and find the inner eros, find the sensuality and, and really tap into that mojo.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, curious . What that path felt like for you? Was it really bumpy for years? Was there an aha moment? A lot of people get stuck there.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah, yeah, it was very bumpy for me at first, and I definitely went, uh, more of the hypersexualized route. It was, you know, a combination of, um, looking for, uh, the attention, looking for the validation that I’m okay. My body was now attuned to somebody else using it and having that be the, oh, you are, you are somebody, and this is, you know, the way that you are supposed to experience it. So I went that route for a number of years. And also, you know what, and I’m obviously, I’m a real open, open book, pun intended, Um, I also, you know, got stuck in excessive drinking in my early teens and in my late teens, you know, abused some drugs for a couple of years, and it was all because. There was no coping skills that were offered or given to me. There was no conversation around what had happened, so all I wanted to do was numb out, and that’s normal, right? I mean, especially. So many people have gone through these experiences. You naturally will leave your body. There’s this disassociation that occurs. ’cause why would you wanna be in this? I call it a rental vehicle, like it’s, it’s the one we got for this life.
Deborah Kagan: We don’t know how long the lease is for, but. Once it’s been, uh, mistreated by certainly from outside, why, you know, it doesn’t feel safe to be in the body anymore. For me, one of the ways that was to deal with that was to just numb it. Absolutely numb it, abuse it, and let’s not think about it. ’cause if I don’t feel it, then it’s not there. So that was, I did for quite a long time. And the aha, um, there were a couple of them. The first one was actually moving to Los Angeles. And, um, while we were, uh, working on a, a film I got the pleasure of working on a film called Striptease. And, uh, there were a number of trainers we were filming in Florida, uh, for the, for the time. And I got to work with, and I hired this trainer who was a Mr. Olympia. So skilled, you know, with the technicality and all of the, um, ways to Not only shift your body physically, but he was very committed to treating the body well. And he introduced me to being more mindful of what I was putting in my body food-wise. He got me turned onto juicing, right? He got me turned onto, um, the, you know, the thoughts that I’m having as well while we were working out. So that, that kind of sparked something for me. and that was the first moment of like, oh, I can shift my relationship and start to treat this vehicle in a more sacred way. Then it was really the end, uh, now cut to a number of years later. It was the end of the marriage. For me, that was a big aha because while I had transformed much of my mindset around what had happened, by that point, I had not shifted the uh, neurobiological. Energetics of the traumas in my body. And that’s what I then, you know, I mentioned previously that I went out to do and to learn and to work on, and that was a beautiful, um, kind of five year experience that that happened.
Deborah Kagan: And actually all the stories in the book undressed, those are all from that time period of this awakening that I had. For myself with wonderful, wonderful lovers that I didn’t know at the time were helping me to heal, but somehow on a subconscious level, these experiences I did call in to transform and to wake, wake myself up to a place of, um, more sovereignty.
Dr Pedram Shojai: It’s an interesting arc. Is someone from the outside teaches you to love your body in a way that was probably not part of your gestalt. Most of us don’t grow up thinking, you know, food is nourishing, food is love, food is just food. And that transition then allowed you to kind of lay your body on the altar of tantra, for lack of a better word, whatever that is, to then find
Dr Pedram Shojai: Find yourself through this, this really powerful, these sexual encounters and all these things that kind of came, came to you, but you had the operating system to understand that this was part of your healing. A lot of people don’t have that, right? A lot of people don’t find that.
Deborah Kagan: Well, and, and one very important thing that I didn’t mention is from the time that. The rape happened until I ever said anything about, it was six years. So I was in silence and in shame, and in pain and in deep quiet turmoil. And that was all the time of the, you know, misusing, um, substances. There wasn’t a, a space to talk about it. And this is, I, I’m really grateful that I did go to film school and I got to, you know, be in a creative, um, industry because it was during my time in film school that I made a short film about the experience. I think the, the, the assignment was, um, you know, make a short film and, and, uh, and use voiceover. So tell a story, you know, use voiceover, um, and, and make this short film. And so I did, and it was a very arty, um, poetic version of what happened. I mean, didn’t recreate it visually, but I did, I recreated it in terms of, uh, words and, and used, um, symbolism with visuals. And it was very powerful and. It was powerful for people who’d saw it at the time, but it was also very powerful for me because that was the moment of breaking silence, and I think it’s better today. But when we have that kind of shame, I mean, you know, Brene Brown, of course, speaks about this so beautifully with all of her work. I. that that creates toxicity not only in our minds, but in our body. And once I opened the doorway and said, this is what happened, um, I will talk about this, anyone and anyone now, and I’ve pretty much never shut up since, um, not just to talk about it, even though talking about it, if you never have is the first step to healing. Um, It was, you know, it’s become a space to help others to go, oh, hey look, you can break your silence as well. You can say something, you can share it with a friend. Right. Whatever it might be. Um, to be able to break that silence is one of the biggest things that, uh, I’m an advocate for.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So there’s least a few dozen people listening to us right now who are self-medicating in some way Hmm on the other side of that, that shame, right? Um, for some of ’em, it doesn’t feel safe to break silence.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Right. And so I’m sure there’s some good, uh, boundaries and, um, conversations to be had around how to do it in a way where, you know, you are, you know, the, the, the perp doesn’t come after you and hurt you, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, I. There are others that just don’t know culturally how to do that. I mean, you know, I, I come from a, a Middle Eastern culture, it’s like, you know, it would bring shame to the family and, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of that. So how do you help people unravel that as you, um, help them come clean?
Deborah Kagan: Yeah, this is where, um, the work that I call about being a mojo Dalicious woman comes in. And so I, I’d love to share the four pillars of mojo. I think that would be really valuable and useful because once you know about these four pillars. Then you can start to in, in any one of them, you can start to utilize the tools, which will begin to soften the edges. We’ll begin to start to, uh, peel apart and create an opening for you to. Begin that transformation in, in a very gentle way. Uh, it, you know, it doesn’t have to be like, rip the bandaid off and retraumatize yourself. I mean, that’s, you know, of course I would never advocate for that. So when we look at the four pillars of Mojo, we, um, we’ll talk about the first, the, it’s, you know, the acronym MOJO from the word and M is mindset. Right. So it’s about really getting our mindset into a truthful, very present moment experience. Our, the trauma right is, is still traumatic for a few reasons, but one of them is because our mind is still stuck in that place. Or like you were saying, some cultural things. While they are valid, they aren’t a truth.
Deborah Kagan: Across the board with a capital T. So discovering for yourself what is true for you? What are your actual beliefs? Um, also allowing yourself to really understand that there are places that are safe and supportive where you can, uh, share your story, where you can release this burden. Even if it’s with, um, a, a, a therapist or a, you know, a, a, a trauma therapist or, um, uh, a counselor that, uh, they’re wonderful organizations, you know, all over the world that deal with this.
Deborah Kagan: So even if it’s on that level, but you might not think, right, you might have the mindset that there’s no way, there’s, you know, no opening, there’s no possibility. But see, that’s not true. It only is true because there’s that fear and that anxiety and whatever the, uh, conditioning has been, which is why it appears and, and you believe it’s true.
Deborah Kagan: So we start with mindset. Okay. Then there’s the O and then that is what I call the oracle, and this is our body. So this is the life below the neck, and this is where somatic work comes in. This is about beginning to smooth out the, I call them kinks. All right? It’s like a kink in the neurobiology. These are the calcified hardened bits of your cellular memory. All our experiences are layered into our bodies, right? Athletes talk about muscle memory all the time and the cellular memory. This is because the body, right? There’s a wonderful book. The Body keeps score, right? The body always knows, and we need to do that somatic healing so that we can smooth out, unwind that kink. Because we are built to have a natural flow of mojo. That life force that we’re all born with, it never goes away. But when we have these traumas, micro, medium, or macro traumas, these kinks start to hang out in our bodies. And now in, it’s like trying to water the garden with a kinked up hose. The water is not gonna get out the other end until we unwind all those kinks, right?
Deborah Kagan: You’ll get a much better flow every time you unwind a kink. And then the next and the next, so
Dr Pedram Shojai: Real quick, if I could, if I could interrupt between the, the two letters here. A lot of people hear these words, somatic therapies, th you know, somatic work. Um. I’m not convinced everyone knows what the heck that is
Deborah Kagan: of the body.
Dr Pedram Shojai: of the body. Yeah. But like how, you know, how are you molting, how are you letting it move through your body?
Dr Pedram Shojai: What, what best practices.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah, sure. Yeah. So this, and I thank you. This is a great, great question. So there are many different ways to work with the body, some common ones that, uh, you know, you might not even realize helps somatically, right? But some common ones are breath work. Simple and many different ways of breathing. Uh, so breath work is one way to do it. Yoga in its own way is. A form that can help somatically. I actually got trained as a, a certified yoga teacher 23 years ago or something like that, a long time ago, really, because I just wanted to deepen my own experience, my own practice, because when I started yoga, the first six months I would get into two postures and no matter what, I would start sobbing. It was, I mean, it was, I thought I was crazy, honestly, at first, but this is where I started to learn about somatic work because as I was in triangle pose, boom, sobbing, or if I was in pigeon pose, now both of these are opening up and creating more space. In your pelvic region, right in your pelvic girdle, in your hips, your hip flexors, the outer hips, so on and so forth. A lot of old stuff and old grief hangs out in that part of the body. So it made sense. Once I learned, oh no, no wonder I would start crying. So yoga can be very helpful as well to start to somatically heal yourself. Um, other types of things, dance. not necessarily learning tango, but more, um, improvisational dance, feeling your body starting to, to notice like where it either feels kind of Scully, um, quote sore, but really kinked up. Uh, it can also be you start to move and let the music move you. This is another way that you can somatically begin to get in touch, right? Just in touch with the body. I. So people, um, are already doing somatic work, but probably not even, uh, consciously aware of it. Then they’re, you know, you can go much further and work with somatic practitioners where they are going to be working on your body, not necessarily like a masseuse, uh, but you could say that’s a, a similar, um, and they can help to move the, um, energetic and emotional Disrupt out of the body.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, there’s uh. Yoga’s a very, very big word. Right? And there’s millions of people practicing and, and gajillions of instructors in different formats. And same with massage. I mean, I could go to the local hotel and get a massage. I could probably get a massage at the nail Spa, but I. The idea of bringing consciousness and awareness into the body
Dr Pedram Shojai: and folding the awareness into this, this rent a car as you would call it, and allowing that to then open up our understanding of what’s going on.
Dr Pedram Shojai: You know, I think there’s, there’s an element of consciousness to somatic therapies that need to be there, and you have to, you have to understand that the person you’re working with, if you’re working with somebody, has to also get that. And then, then you’re not wasting your time, then you’re not wasting your
Deborah Kagan: Absolutely. And you know, and you’re so right because, and you said consciousness, which that’s what we’re talking about when it’s mindset. So there is a consciousness about now what you’re doing, who you’re being, and uh, the tools that you use. Life, whether it’s, you know, food or whether it’s somatic work.
Deborah Kagan: Right. Um, so I I, I appreciate that you bringing that call back. ’cause it’s absolutely, the consciousness piece and the awareness piece is huge. I always say it’s like without awareness there’s not going to be and accurate action towards what it is that you desire or are creating in life.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Amen. Amen. I really appreciate that. And, and listen, uh, you know, this journey. It’s easy to say. 1, 2, 3, 4, let’s go. I mean, every, every little bit of this is work, but it’s a hell of a lot more work being you if you’re holding in some traumatic event for the last 20, 30 years and, you know, quivering in your upper lip and pretending to be okay at parties.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So let’s, let’s keep going down the mojo, um, architecture and then we’ll, we’ll circle back around please.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate that. ’cause I always think like this is all about getting free. Just all about getting free. Um, great. So now we’re at Jay, and Jay is all about joining with the different roles that you play in life. And this one is so fun. And a lot of women, when they come work with me in my mentorship program, at first they’re like, okay, I kind of get this concept, but it’s a little confusing to me. And once they allow themselves to get into it, oh my gosh. It’s like, no stopping them. Here’s the deal. We all are living out until you get conscious of this, pretty much two roles. One is gonna be a professional role for the most part. So like I’d say like 90% of your life you’re gonna be in that role. And then maybe 10% there’s a personal role, whether that means spouse, partner, mom. You know, a daughter, uh, whatever it might be. Okay. Those, those are the two lanes that most people, certainly women find themselves navigating between. But the fact of the matter is, oh my gosh, right? Like, we’re 31 flavors and then some. Okay. And so there’s the, you know, there’s like maybe an adventurer role, there’s an athlete role, there’s an artist role, there’s a, um, you know, a, a healer role. And there’s certainly. I like to say a mo Dalicious woman role within every single woman, and that’s the part that is deeply comfortable in your skin, and that’s the part that is deeply comfortable with your sensuality and your sexuality. Knows, you know what to ask, what to request, um, knows what you wanna explore with, and has no shame around it at all. Everybody has that. I mean, men have it too. Okay? And your version. Um, so this, when you start to give yourself space to discover the different roles that are already existing in you. But at some point in life, someone was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, you can’t do that.
Deborah Kagan: If you do that, you’re gonna be labeled a slut. Oh, no, no, no. You can’t do that ’cause that’s not gonna make you any money. Oh, no, no, no. You can’t do that. ’cause why would you waste your time doing that? Right? Or, or only bad girls do that or, right. So you get the picture. So those parts get siphoned off, shoved under a rug or in a closet, and at some point. Usually somewhere between, you know, 35 on up, you’re gonna wake up one day and be like, where the fuck did I go? You know, like, where am I? I know there’s so much more to me, but I, I just don’t know where to find her. And when you begin to explore and now peel apart, you are your expression. Now we’re talking about you get to join all those roles and bring them back onto the playing field of your life. Right. So this is a really beautiful, uh, tool for, um, self-actualization.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I love that.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. And then the final O of Mojo is what I call Oasis, and this is where you create your environment to fuel you so you don’t have to feel so drained. Or, um, uh, stressed out all the time and our environment. Uh, we know this now has a massive impact on the totality of our life. And I spent over a decade studying with a Chinese master about how to create spaces that will, again, align your mojo in such a way that it opens the flow of energy in all aspects of your life.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Feng Shui in particular.
Deborah Kagan: Yes.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah,
Deborah Kagan: Yes.
Dr Pedram Shojai: it,
Dr Pedram Shojai: it’s, yeah, Feng shui is some of the cool stuff out there, right?
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. I like to call it, um, acupuncture for architecture.
Dr Pedram Shojai: totally, totally. It’s geo mancy. I mean, it’s understanding lay lines. It’s understanding the energy flow of the planet, and again, a a, a lot of energy people. We’re also hiding in closets because it’s too woo.
Dr Pedram Shojai: It’s too weird. And, and you know, as all this stuff’s coming out, it’s like, holy crap. You know, this, this stuff 30 years ago that I thought was interesting is now science. Right. It’s really come around. It’s really come It has. I mean, when I first heard about it, I thought, I’m like, is that a new Chinese restaurant? You know,
Deborah Kagan: And then, and there were only three books at the time. And um, yeah, and I read them and I got deeply, uh, interested, but I didn’t understand it. And so my introduction
Deborah Kagan: was hiring a consultant
Deborah Kagan: who, um, consulted me for the apartment I was living in at the time. And man, in six weeks my life. Radically changed for the better.
Deborah Kagan: Uh, I mean personally, financially, uh, my sleep, the quality of my sleep changed it. It was, it was, and continues to be a big game changer,
Deborah Kagan: which is why it’s included in the mojo system.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Totally, totally. It’s made, it’s made one of the four pillars.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: a couple things I wanna talk about. I’m gonna start with the, the first one which always comes up is, you know, I, I spent a lot of time in India. I spent a lot of time in Nepal. I was around a lot of kind of tantric yoga and all that.
Dr Pedram Shojai: There’s also the good, the bad and the ugly, and there are also dark douche bags waiting to pounce.
Deborah Kagan: Mm-Hmm.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Especially when somebody is like, okay, I see how so much of my mojo is trapped in my lower chakras and I am now starting to come out. They can see it, see it, smell it, feel it a hundred miles away, and then the predators come.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So how do you, how do you navigate away from the douche bags? How do you stay safe in a process that is so ? So raw and so, so real, and yet so vulnerable.
Deborah Kagan: Tha thank you. That’s a beautiful, beautiful question and an important one, and this is what I’m gonna say. Every single one of us has, uh, intuitive capabilities and every single one of us knows really, truly, like, knows in the depths of your being something that is, I. Okay for you and something that is not now.
Deborah Kagan: Yes. Does the wiring get confused by based on some of the abuses that people have gone through? Absolutely. I still believe, and I have watched this over and over and over again for a quarter of a century with women I’ve worked with that no matter what. When you allow yourself, right, again, you have that awareness and that consciousness to really take a moment and check in with yourself. You will know who’s the douche bag and who isn’t, right? But, so again, we’re gonna start with mindset. It’s gonna start with giving yourself the permission to have that awareness and learn to trust yourself again. So what’s an easy, simple way, you know, to uh, to do this? I love to do it when I’m traveling, frankly. And what I mean is, again, our bodies all energy and our body is like a big pendulum. So when I travel, I travel alone a lot. I, you know, on a mission to explore as much of the world as possible. Sometimes I’ll just walk out of wherever I’m staying, not have any real agenda, and I’ll just stand on the sidewalk or path wherever I happen to be, and I will wait. And I will wait to see which way my body gets pulled, getting pulled forward to one side, to the other side. Am I getting pulled back? Right? Which way is it getting pulled? Your body will get pulled in a direction and then whichever way my body starts, you know, leans, that’s where I start walking. Um, so I share this because you could do this in your own town and you know, you give yourself a timeframe, say okay, for the next hour. I’m going to start to utilize this, um, body pendulum, uh, exercise and practice to begin to get in tune and trust your intuition again. That’s the thing I hear all the time that women will, women will say to me early on in the process, how do I know? How can I really trust my intuition? And that is a muscle that you build like any other muscle. So this body pendulum is one way to begin to do that. And it’s a very simple and safe way to do it, especially if you’re in your, you know, your own town and in a space that, uh, you know, feels good to you. You could even go to the mall, frankly, right? And just be like, all right, let me see which way. Um, that’s been a, a super helpful tool. Because now you’re training your body and training to listen to your body. So therefore, when you’re in, in front of a, you know, maybe a, a new teacher, a yoga teacher, you know, a quote guru, um, that .You’re gonna, your BSS meter is gonna, is gonna be much sharper than if you are still stuck in all of the, the traumas.
Deborah Kagan: Uh, you know, and those kinks are still very stuck in the body. Right. So that’s one way to begin to work with it.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I like that. I like that a lot. Um, the, and, and the thing about the trauma is. That’s a process, right? So you’re spending years sometimes kind of resolving and healing through that. And at the same time your, your new protective adult self needs to have the skills to kind of, you know, run interference and walk out in front and say, this is safe.
Dr Pedram Shojai: This, this guy’s not, or, you know, we’re not, we’re not going down that street.
Dr Pedram Shojai: And, and that is, you know, it’s a lifesaving intuition to say the least.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I love, I love how you’re pendulum doing the pendulum with your body. Um, how much I’m curious. ’cause we live in such a, a fragmented society. It’s like, okay, so you went over to LA and, you know, found the, the metaphysical hippie woo.
Dr Pedram Shojai: And was like, ah, my people. Right? But there’s a lot, you know, there. I could tell you right now, there’s like a dozen. Conservative Christian upbringing, women listening to this right now that are cringing, saying, which, which like, I, you know what I mean? Like, there’s so much programming
Dr Pedram Shojai: that is counter to, to allowing you to trust your divine feminine and gi giving yourself permission to be her, right.
Deborah Kagan: Mm-Hmm.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So I’m curious as to how many of those come to you and how you, how you engage with that.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. I mean that’s, that’s when I, I just, you know, I start to question and I remind. Women where it’s like, take a moment and just check in with your own internalized patriarchal programming, right? And your own internalized misogyny. We, we have been stuck in what I call the masculinization of women for at least half a century more now, you know more, definitely more than half a century. And you know, I think what that question that you just ask, it goes hand in hand with that. Um, I have, I have women from all different religions, reli and religions and religious backgrounds and religious beliefs that have worked with me and continue to work with me in my mentorship program and what you know.
Deborah Kagan: And so what I say is, none of this ha will get in the way of your love of God. And the way that you choose to love God, that doesn’t get in the way. All of this that I talk about. Is going to enhance, uh, or have the possibility to enhance your connection to that God source, that divine source, which I realize in some ways could also make them go, yeah, okay, you’re still a witch, right? because uh, you know, it’s only God and that’s that. And honestly, Um, I, uh, I’m a believer in you’re going to get to what it is that is for you when you are ready to say yes to it, because what is meant for you is gonna find you. Right. So if this work is meant to, is meant to be for you, then it will find you and you will find it.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. Well, and honestly, if you suffer enough, enough is enough. I think there’s a, there, there’s a great movie on this. Years ago, um, Agora, where the, the high Priestess of Alexandria Apache was really the religious leader of the antiquity in time. And then, you know, the Christianity. Took over and, and kind of took over the Roman rule and it just became this, this dude, this dude party right.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Became patriarchy. And it really, it was, it was a really good illustration of how our ideation around it
Dr Pedram Shojai: became all about mansplaining and, and just, yeah. Yeah. There’s, there’s a lot of history there. Screw all that shit. Right.
Deborah Kagan: screw this shit. Exactly. And there’s, so there are some amazing, amazing books that also document it as well. And, um, and you know, it’s worth exploring if, if it, uh, is an intrigue for any of your listeners.
Hey, just a quick timeout to remind you that I recorded a comprehensive course called tantra very much on topic here. It’s in the store@theurbanmonk.com. Uh, really, really meaningful work. If you don’t learn it from me, learn it from somebody, but learn it because it will change your perspective on not just your sexuality, but your mortality. Uh, I’ll leave it at that back to the show.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. So people listening who are like, oh man, she’s singing my song. Um, do you start with m like, like what, you know, is there a sequence to do this the right way to un unravel in a healthy way? I.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. Um. No. So it’s like all leads, all roads lead to Rome, right? Um, this is where I say whatever doorway that is, the one that kind of goes, woo, that one. That’s the doorway to walk through. That’s the pillar to walk through. And what I will say is, the one thing without a shadow of a doubt to always connect with is to learn to have A really beautiful relationship with what I call your, it’s your power center, your main power center. Now undressed is a, a book that travels through the seven power centers of the body. Also, you know, you know, known as chakras. Um, I refer to ’em as power centers. The thing about our second power center is it is the home of our mojo. Right. Also, martial artists. They call it our, our our, um, this is any, anybody who you know is a boxer out there or, or, um, you know, knows boxers. This is also like the, the point of gra or center of gravity. So to have a relationship with your power center, which if your listeners want right now, you can go ahead and take your thumb, stick it into your belly button, take your middle finger, place it on top of your pubic bone, and then just lay, you know, lay your palm down flat. This low belly. I also like to call it the goddess pooch, ’cause I’ve always had a little extra there. Um, is, it goes from the front of the body, this center, all the way to the back of the body. Now just when I’m sitting here right now putting my hand on my low belly, it just flushed with energy, right? It was like, oh, oh, right.
Deborah Kagan: Okay. We’re here, we’re together now. It happened that quickly because I’ve been cultivating it for decades, right? So it’s, if you’re new to this, and if you’re new to having an awareness. And a mindset understanding that you have this space called your power center, home of mojo, then that’s first. Okay. Oh wow.
Deborah Kagan: Great. Now I have the awareness. Now all you listeners have the awareness. Amazing. Now you know, you can just place your hand there and say hello. Really just simply by saying hello, you are now placing attention lower on your body, which is going to open the meridian and the neurobiological flow of energy to go lower in your body. And that is gonna begin this um, process and this energetic cycle that will begin to normalize. Actually being in your body and sourcing your energy from its true home, your second power center.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Uh, so there in Daoism there’s this thing called the microcosmic orbit, which runs along the spine front to back. And a colleague of mine, Dr. Tom McCombs, brought me to this literature showing that just creating a little bit of pressure, kind of iation.
Deborah Kagan: Mm-Hmm.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Of the, the, the sacrum in particular will drive sperm, aine, terrible word, because we, we all have it right, but sperm aine up into the brain through certain frame and back into the brain and do this incredible circuit of consciousness.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Um, that is mechanically pumped. I do wanna, uh, mention something for, for the guys out there if you’re, if you’re hetero inclined. Everything that we’re talking about here, everything that Deborah’s talking about is also for you in the tantric principle that will make . Lovemaking something very different for men is that’s what we follow, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: Follow the energy curve that’s coming in your partner’s body, that’s rising in your partner’s body. And literally we subjugate the, the, the, the energy to the feminine. And then that divine feminine drives a very, very different relationship with lovemaking, right?
Deborah Kagan: Yeah.
Dr Pedram Shojai: so if you’re a man listening to this.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Pay attention. , right?
Deborah Kagan: Well, thank you for that. And I, I, I really, I wanna share with you because this, you know, I wrote the i i I, my recent book, undressed, I wrote this for women, but what’s been shocking in the best way has been the response from men. And they are speaking to what you just said, which is, whoa, I just learned so much more. Not only about the female mind, right, and, but it’s like, if you think that you don’t understand women, here’s an insider’s guide. And also, I didn’t know that you could connect, um, spiritually and sexually with a woman in these ways. Now, again, I didn’t write it as a how to for hetero inlines, you know, for men to learn about that. And the fact of the matter is they are, which is so exciting to me because what you just spoke to and about that, that intimacy and that connection where you do, uh, yes. It’s more of a, and this word is, it’s so misused. Um, but you know, more quote, tantric inclined, there’s. It’s, um, it’s so much more deeply fulfilling for both partners, right?
Deborah Kagan: It becomes a source of nourishment, not only for your body, but for your, your mind and your spirit as well, right? When lovemaking sex quickies, like have and has this kind of consciousness, uh, utilized, so.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. Uh, my experience of it is men who haven’t been, you know, and a lot of men grow up thinking sex comes from porn, right? Like, they’re just, they’re misinformed about what? Se se, sexuality and sensuality can really be men . And woman probably, right? But, um, when they have this first experience of true love making and following the female principle and understanding what this kind of dynamo of energy and this capacitor of energy is and how it lights up the chakras on the way up, it’s like, what the hell was that?
Dr Pedram Shojai: You’re like, yeah, it’s what you’ve been missing for 40 years, right? Like, well, yeah, welcome to the party, bro. Right? yeah, yeah, a, it is a real game changer.
Deborah Kagan: yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah, so I love this conversation. I always love this conversation. We live in a very sexually repressed culture.
Dr Pedram Shojai: We live in a culture where trauma hides trauma and shame bury, and one of the really powerful vehicles is to go to the place, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: The, you know, your second chakra was wounded every time you got in a pigeon pose.
Dr Pedram Shojai: It was screaming at you, right? It was vibrating outward and making you cry. Um, but you knew better than to bury it. You knew better than to, you know, smoke and drink and hide it, you know, for for much longer. And then you allowed it to come out and really define you now, right?
Dr Pedram Shojai: Your now your mission is to help other people on this. So I really like how that that
Dr Pedram Shojai: has to work.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah. A thousand percent. And you know, it’s interesting because the practice that I talk about in the book is, um, really where you work with your cervix. ’cause again, energetically, this is where so much of our pain and trauma will be stored.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Hmm.
Deborah Kagan: And one of the, uh, women who was an early reader of this said that she did this was the one exercise.
Deborah Kagan: She just happened to say, okay, I’m gonna do that one. And she practiced it for a weekend and she said that she got to drop so much trauma that had been still, and she had someone who’d been done, done a lot of work on herself. She said, this practice like still just let her drop all of the trauma that was still hanging out in her body. and I loved that. Um, I loved hearing that feedback, obviously for her because anybody who gets to free themselves even more is exciting to me. Um, and uh, and I thought it was very encouraging for others that when you take the time for yourself and when you give yourself the opportunity to, um, explore yourself in a new way. and and in a safe way, what can be possible not only for your, your pleasure, but for your own sense of self-expression and the way you move through the world.
Dr Pedram Shojai: I love that the um, and folks. Dogs happen. Um, you know, this is the world of pod, the, the world of podcasting and Amazon delivery colliding. Um, it’s just a dog. Um, so there’s also this in, in my tradition, we call it retroflection. You turn the light of awareness around and look inward and . Bringing your consciousness to certain parts of the body that need healing.
Dr Pedram Shojai: You know, I hurt my shoulder. I move my mind’s eye to my shoulder. I breathe to my shoulder. I allow cheetah flow through my shoulder, and I allow the light to then reassemble the atoms into a configuration that that is health inspiring again. Cervix is deep in there, man. Right? The uterus is deep in there.
Dr Pedram Shojai: These, you know, these are parts of the body that our mind, um, has been trained from the very start of our talk to look away from. You don’t play doctor with that little boy, shame on you, right? And so the, the mind’s eye. And if you’re listening to this right now, question, when’s the last time your mind’s eye turned around and focused on your cervix?
Dr Pedram Shojai: Can you even find it in your body?
Deborah Kagan: Exactly. Exactly.
Deborah Kagan: I love, how you,
Deborah Kagan: yeah,
Deborah Kagan: yeah. No, I, and I love that you, I love that you have put that perspective on it. And it’s so true because
Deborah Kagan: again, like I didn’t know that there was something called a cervical orgasm until I was in my thirties. And I feel blessed you know, to have learned that in my thirties because there’s so many women that come to me and they, what do you mean a cervical orgasm?
Deborah Kagan: What you know, like
Dr Pedram Shojai: Totally
Deborah Kagan: all we do is get a pap smear. That’s just what you do with
Deborah Kagan: a cervix, right? If you, you know, it opens if you birth a child and then it goes back and then you just keep getting pap smears, right? You hope it stays healthy
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yep. That’s it. available. There’s so much more available. Like I, you know, whole, almost whole uterus, orgasms, whole body orgasms. I mean, the thi it just keeps getting better. But if you have spent all of your time looking away, I. Then your eyes in, in, in Chinese medicine, we say this right? The, the chi follows the sheen.
Dr Pedram Shojai: So the sheen is the mind of the spirit. And if the sheen turns on a specific body part, then the chi, the energy will flow to it. And if you flow enough energy to, it’s like watering your, your plants, right?
Deborah Kagan: hmm. Yes. Yes. Exactly. I love that and I appreciate hearing it where the chief follows the she. ’cause, you know, in, uh, in the more new age world, it’s right where your attention goes, your energy flows.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you know, the, a your goes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what they’re, I mean, I, I, if we live in an energetic universe that has some sort of rules and laws, then we’re all observing it in different languages, right? So, listen, I’m a big fan of the work that you’re doing. Um, where can people get the book?
Dr Pedram Shojai: I highly recommend reading it. Um, if this is speaking to you, the book will help.
Deborah Kagan: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and you can get it all@undressedbook.com. Um, there’s some awesome bonuses there as well. Uh, and of course, if you ever wanna say hello to me, I definitely hang out and play on the ig. So I’m at Deborah Kagan there, and of course there’s lots of links to all the other things, including, um, my podcast. As well, the real undressed.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Love it. Thank you. You’ve been a delight. Um, Thank you all the best and would love to have you back.
Deborah Kagan: Oh, I love that. I appreciate you. Thank you.
Dr Pedram Shojai: Thank you.
Okay. That’s a wrap. Hope you enjoyed it. I did. I really appreciate Deborah and her perspective. Uh, if you like to give me a, like, if you haven’t subscribed, do the thing. Uh, wherever you’re at. Um, it helps us understand that the podcast is reaching the ears that smile. And I’ll see in the next one.